But first, let's establish the most common characteristics endemic to NDEs. Typical features in an NDE are: detachment from the body ( out-of-body experience); travelling through a tunnel (from dark to light); intense emotions (joy, love, peace); heightened and vivid perceptions; encounters with deceased loved ones and spiritual beings; life review, knowledge of ones purpose in life and a strong encouragement to return to earthly life.
There are occasional reports of negative NDEs but the overwhelming majority are positive.
1.Anesthesia Awareness Theory:
Dr. G Woerlee is probably best known for advocating the theory that Anesthetic Awareness can explain NDEs. This theory fails immediately because A.A only involves an auditory perception as well as painful, frightening and traumatic experiences. Contrasted with NDEs which are mostly pleasant, joyful and liberating. NDEs mostly involve visual perception, although auditory perception is possible, patients usually report being able to communicate and perceive information telepathically. The three most important key points to remember whenever A.A is propagated as an alternative explanation for NDEs are:
(i) The so-called relevant anecdotes which Dr. Woerlee and company picked out did not match the data.
(ii) A.A's and NDEs are vastly dissimilar experiences. The former being strictly auditory while the latter may include auditory, visual and telepathic perception.
(iii) NDEs causes the individual to adopt a healthy and optimistic approach to life, while A.A sufferers usually can't let go of their traumatic experiences and many end up committing suicide.
2. Hypoxia/Anoxia Theory:
A condition whereby the brain is being depleted by oxygen which is accompanied by an increase in carbon dioxide that are known to cause hallucinations especially among pilots. Dr. Kelly, a professor from Yale explains in his book Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century some of the discrepancies between hypoxia symptoms and NDEs; "The primary features of acceleration-induced hypoxia, however, are myoclonic convulsions (rhythmic jerking of the limbs), impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling in the extremities and around the mouth, confusion and disorientation upon awakening, and paralysis, symptoms that do not occur in association with NDEs. Moreover, contrary to NDEs, the visual images Whinnery reported frequently included living people, but never deceased people; and no life review or accurate out-of-body perceptions have been reported in acceleration-induced loss of consciousness." [Page 379] [emphasis added by me]
3. The Ketamine/Medication Theory:
This theory can be easily refuted in four reasons:
(i) One cannot build a coherent theory of NDEs on a psychopharmacological basis because not all subjects were under medication, and in any case the effects of different drugs vary endlessly.
(ii) Another objection strengthened by the fact ketamine is no longer in general medical use, whilst subjects still continue to report NDEs.
(iii)The type of experiences induced by ketamine are mostly negative. Here's a list of some effects of ketamine:
- feeling happy and relaxed
- feeling detached from your body
- hallucinations
- confusion and clumsiness
- increased heart rate and blood pressure
- slurred speech and blurred vision
- anxiety, panic and violence
- vomitting
- lowered sensitivity to pain
*Note that two or perhaps three of the above effects are shared by NDEs. That does not even meet the standard for a preponderance of evidence.
(iii) Ketamine and most other anesthetic drugs were invented in the 20th century, despite the fact of reports that people were experiencing NDEs since the time of Plato.
4. Temporal Lobe Seizure (TLS) Theory:
Temporal Lobe Seizures are caused by abnormal electrical discharges in the brain, which may cause auditory and visual hallucinations. The Mayo Clinic lists the following symptoms:
- A sudden sense of unprovoked fear
- A deja vu experience — a feeling that what's happening has happened before
- A sudden or strange odor or taste
- A rising sensation in the abdomen
- Loss of awareness of surroundings
- Staring
- Lip smacking
- Repeated swallowing or chewing
- Unusual finger movements, such as picking motions
5. Residual Brain Activity Theory:
This theory came forward after a study done on rats which detected the presence of residual electric activity in dying rats. This study was also criticized by NDE researchers over here at IANDS, who concluded:
"There is ample evidence that consciousness is supported only by a certain minimal level of electrical activity. After the cardiac arrest, the rats do not have sufficient electrical brain activity to support consciousness. This conclusion is consistent with EEG studies in humans who experienced cardiac arrest and who immediately lost consciousness.So what do the highly coherent, global oscillations in the rats indicate? Most likely they are a natural oscillation that occurs in resonant neural circuits when the neural activity of the living rat has ceased. In other words, they are the remnant electrical activity of a dead brain"
Michael Prescott also points out on his blog some significant problems with the study:"Another possible weakness of the hypothesis is perhaps more easily tested. In the study, the rats' brains were monitored (using intracranial electrodes) throughout the waking state, anesthesia, and cardiac arrest (or asphyxiation). No surge was recorded during anesthesia. This has led some to argue that the surge cannot be responsible for an NDE, since NDEs do sometimes occur under anesthesia.In thinking about this, I wondered if we might be mixing apples and oranges. Broadly speaking, there are two kinds of NDEs (though there can be considerable overlap). The first kind are what might be called veridical or autoscopic NDEs, and are basically out-of-body experiences in which the person hovers over his physical body and observes what's happening around him. The second kind are transcendent NDEs, in which the person experiences a trip toward (or into) a bright light, reunion with deceased loved ones, a life review, and a decision (made by himself or others) to return to earthly life. Not all of these components are found in the typical transcendent NDE, but normally at least one of them is.
It seems clear that the veridical NDEs (or OBEs) cannot be associated with the electrical surge. Not only do such NDEs and OBEs occur under anesthesia, when there is no surge, but they also occur in other situations where the brain is not in any distress. It is even possible to learn to bring on such OBEs at will."
Feeling
detached from your body (‘falling into a k-hole - See more at:
http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/drug-facts/ketamine#effects
Feeling happy and relaxed
On a final note: only a theory that can account for every commonly reported feature of the NDE will suffice as an entirely satisfactory, total neuroscientific explanation of the phenomenon.
Feeling happy and relaxed
Feeling detached from your body (‘falling into a k-hole')
Hallucinations
Confusion and clumsiness
Increased heart rate and blood pressure
Slurred speech and blurred vision
Anxiety, panic and violence
Vomiting
Lowered sensitivity to pain - See more at: http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/drug-facts/ketamine#effects
Feeling happy and relaxed
Feeling detached from your body (‘falling into a k-hole')
Hallucinations
Confusion and clumsiness
Increased heart rate and blood pressure
Slurred speech and blurred vision
Anxiety, panic and violence
Vomiting
Lowered sensitivity to pain - See more at: http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/drug-facts/ketamine#effects
According to the study "In this study, the neuroscientists distinguish four distinct stages of brain death. Cardiac arrest stage 1 (CAS1) reflects the time (~4 seconds) between the last regular heartbeat and the loss of a oxygenated blood pulse (i.e. clinical death). The next stage (CAS2) lasts about 6 seconds, and ends with a burst in low-frequency brain waves (so-called 'delta blip'). The third death stage, CAS3, lasts approximately 20 seconds at which point there is no more evidence of meaningful brain activity at the final stage, CAS4." It continues
ReplyDelete"These stages seem to reflect an organized series of distinct brain states, rather than a gradual fade out of brain activity. First, we see a sudden transition from the anaesthetised state with an increase in fast brain waves. It is as if the brain is suddenly shaken from the effects of anaesthesia at the moment of death. Next, brain activity settles into a period of slower brain waves during CAS2. Perhaps most surprisingly, recordings are then dominated in CAS3 by brain waves more commonly associated with normal wakefulness during life (so-called gamma activity). In further analyses, the researchers also show that this ‘afterlife' brain activity is also highly coordinated across brain areas and different wavelengths. These are the neural hallmarks of high-level cognitive activity. In sum, these data suggests that long after clinical death, the brain enters a brief state of heightened activity that is normally associated with wakeful consciousness. Interestingly, the authors even suggest that the level of activity observed during the final active death stage (CAS3) not only resembles the waking state, but might even reflect a heightened state of conscious awareness similar to the "highly lucid and realer-than-real mental experiences reported by near-death survivors". This is a pretty bold claim that critically depends on their quantification of 'consciousness'. They argue that in the final stage of brain death there is actually more evidence for consciousness-related activity than during normal wakeful consciousness. But how can we quantity ‘consciousness-related activity'?" (Source http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/brain-metrics/could_a_final_surge_in )
" No surge was recorded during anesthesia. This has led some to argue that the surge cannot be responsible for an NDE, since NDEs do sometimes occur under anesthesia" According to the above study it happens it happens just before the heart stops, furthermore if a person doesn't clinically die then it wasn't a "near death" experience - by definition.
"but they also occur in other situations where the brain is not in any distress. " Same as above if the person wasn't dying then how was it a "near death" experience?
"It is even possible to learn to bring on such OBEs at will." Yes people can imagine such things.
"On a final note: only a theory that can account for every feature of the NDE will suffice as an entirely satisfactory, totally neuroscientific explanation of the phenomenon" Since you are good talking about other theories, can you tell me what your 'theory" is? No doubt you will say your "theory" is the soul detached itself from the body and had a peak into the "spirit world", or the "afterlife" can you tell us how we can test your theory? Probably you will say the soul is not physical and science cannot test for the immaterial soul, in that case why talk about theories when you have already made up your mind, since this soul "theory"is by definition unfalsifiable
Here is some contrary views.
ReplyDeleteMany studies in humans suggest that altered temporal lobe functioning, especially functioning in the right temporal lobe, is involved in mystical and religious experiences. We investigated temporal lobe functioning in individuals who reported having transcendental "near-death experiences" during life-threatening events. These individuals were found to have more temporal lobe epileptiform electroencephalographic activity than control subjects and also reported significantly more temporal lobe epileptic symptoms. Contrary to predictions, epileptiform activity was nearly completely lateralized to the left hemisphere. The near-death experience was not associated with dysfunctional stress reactions such as dissociation, posttraumatic stress disorder, and substance abuse, but rather was associated with positive coping styles. Additional analyses revealed that near-death experiencers had altered sleep patterns, specifically, a shorter duration of sleep and delayed REM sleep relative to the control group. These results suggest that altered temporal lobe functioning may be involved in the near-death experience and that individuals who have had such experiences are physiologically distinct from the general population. (Source http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15043643 )
In the new survey, use of marijuana, LSD and MDMA, also known as ecstasy, displayed modest links to volunteers’ reports of illusions of walking or moving rapidly up and down while actually remaining still. But only ketamine use exhibited a strong relationship with having had a range of out-of-body experiences, regardless of any other drugs ingested at the time of those sensations, researchers say.
Neuroscientist Olaf Blanke of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne calls ketamine “an interesting candidate to further understand some of the brain mechanisms in out-of-body experiences.” Blanke, who like a growing number of scientists studies these phenomena in controlled experiments says that drugs such as ecstasy and amphetamines also deserve close scrutiny.
Blanke has linked out-of-body experiences to reduced activity in brain areas that integrate diverse sensations into a unified perception of one’s body and self. Ketamine and other recreational drugs act throughout the brain, making it difficult to explain how any one drug might specifically affect sensation-integrating tissue, Blanke says.
Girard’s team administered online surveys about drug use and drug-related experiences to 192 volunteers, ages 14 to 48. Almost half the sample reported having used marijuana, alcohol, ecstasy, ketamine and amphetamines. Roughly two-thirds had taken ketamine, and nearly everyone had used marijuana and alcohol.
Almost three-quarters of all participants reported having had a feeling of temporarily leaving their bodies, usually on several occasions. About 42 percent had experienced seeing their own bodies from an outside vantage point. Feelings of rapidly moving up and down, falling, flying or spinning had affected more than 60 percent of volunteers. Another 41 percent reported illusions of sitting up, moving a limb or walking around a room, only to realize that they had not moved.
Of those reporting feelings of leaving their bodies, 58 percent were under the influence of ketamine at the time. Ketamine use also displayed a close association with other unusual bodily sensations.
Apparent effects of drugs such as ecstasy on out-of-body experiences were largely explained by associated ketamine use, Girard says. (Source http://www.wired.com/2011/02/ketamine-drug-hallucinations/ )
Neuroscientist Olaf Blanke of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne calls ketamine “an interesting candidate to further understand some of the brain mechanisms in out-of-body experiences.” Blanke, who like a growing number of scientists studies these phenomena in controlled experiments says that drugs such as ecstasy and amphetamines also deserve close scrutiny//
DeleteI've also dealt with this and successfully refuted the drug theory above in number 3.
John
ReplyDeleteI haven't been checking up on this email address in a while. Anyway, you said:
Here is some contrary views.
...The near-death experience was not associated with dysfunctional stress reactions such as dissociation, posttraumatic stress disorder, and substance abuse, but rather was associated with positive coping styles. Additional analyses revealed that near-death experiencers had altered sleep patterns, specifically, a shorter duration of sleep and delayed REM sleep relative to the control group. These results suggest that altered temporal lobe functioning may be involved in the near-death experience and that individuals who have had such experiences are physiologically distinct from the general population//
I'm glad to see the researchers have excluded substance abuse and any type of stress disorders. However, I find the conclusion that NDEs are merely a positive coping mechanism to be flawed since many NDEs have been reported by people who've attempted suicide. The mere act or even thought of committing suicide stems from a desperate mind who is unable to cope. Since the overwhelming majority of NDEs are positive in nature, one would expect only healthy, confident and optimistic people to have them.
regarding the temporal lobe's role in NDEs - I've dealt with that above in number 4, the two or three similarities are superficial and still statistically improbable to infer any type of correlation.
According to the study "In this study, the neuroscientists distinguish four distinct stages of brain death. Cardiac arrest stage 1 (CAS1) reflects the time (~4 seconds) between the last regular heartbeat and the loss of a oxygenated blood pulse (i.e. clinical death). The next stage (CAS2) lasts about 6 seconds, and ends with a burst in low-frequency brain waves (so-called 'delta blip'). The third death stage, CAS3, lasts approximately 20 seconds at which point there is no more evidence of meaningful brain activity at the final stage, CAS4." It continues...//
ReplyDeleteOK, the scientists have detected an even deepened state of awareness in dying rats. Here are some pertinent issues with the study:
1. What then is the current acceptable criteria for determining clinical death? Is the old method no longer viable?
2. The Nature article you cited sates there's a "Heightened awareness just after death". After death??? But all Physicalist theories assume death is final and there can be no "after death"
3. The Nature article is cautious not to extrapolate rat consciousness onto human experiences. Without a study that can observe human consciousness during the stages of clinical death - any extrapolation will be guilty of the Anthropomorphic Fallacy, unless it can be proven from a Retrospective study that rat and human consciousness is near identical.
There are some more issues with the interpretation of the data from the rat study as indicated above in number 5 but that will do for now.
===
Since you are good talking about other theories, can you tell me what your 'theory" is? No doubt you will say your "theory" is the soul detached itself from the body and had a peak into the "spirit world", or the "afterlife" can you tell us how we can test your theory? Probably you will say the soul is not physical and science cannot test for the immaterial soul, in that case why talk about theories when you have already made up your mind, since this soul "theory"is by definition unfalsifiable//
First off, my theory is the Null Hypothesis, since I accept the data from NDEs as they are presented. It is the Alternative Hypothesis which shoulders the BoP. And since none of the alternative theories which were experimentally simulated matched all of the data, that's why I stick with the null hypothesis.
The soul itself is unfalsifiable because it is a non-physical entity. For non-physical claims the testing can be done via reductio ad absurdum, which is the logical version of falsifiability.
If you wish to assert that all claims must pass falsifiability then that is a claim which must be proven falsifiable but not falsified.
ReplyDelete"I've also dealt with this and successfully refuted the drug theory above in number 3." No you haven't it is known drugs can produce this phenomenon known as "out of body experience" remember OBEs are not NDEs. Also read this interesting experiment which produces out of body experience whilst monitoring the brain activity http://www.livescience.com/50683-out-of-body-illusion.html
"1. What then is the current acceptable criteria for determining clinical death? Is the old method no longer viable?" Clinical death is when breathing stops and the heart stops beating but remember just because the heart has stopped beating does not mean their is no brain activity or the person cannot be revived (which is why we have Cpr.
"2. The Nature article you cited sates there's a "Heightened awareness just after death". After death??? But all Physicalist theories assume death is final and there can be no "after death" They are talking about clinical death not brain death.
"3. The Nature article is cautious not to extrapolate rat consciousness onto human experiences. Without a study that can observe human consciousness during the stages of clinical death - any extrapolation will be guilty of the Anthropomorphic Fallacy, unless it can be proven from a Retrospective study that rat and human consciousness is near identical." Sure but these studies form the basis of such a hypothesis in humans and their brain activity during cardiac arrest, as the article says though it is much easy to do these experiments on rats than on humans so obtaining experimental evidence to support this hypothesis in humans is going to much more difficult (to say the least).
"First off, my theory is the Null Hypothesis, since I accept the data from NDEs as they are presented" A scientific hypothesis is something that can be tested, and makes predictions, and for this reason the survival (of consciousness after death) is not a scientific hypothesis, since it cannot be tested, and doesn't make predictions. What the believers in the afterlife present is pure confirmation bias.
"If you wish to assert that all claims must pass falsifiability then that is a claim which must be proven falsifiable but not falsified" All scientific claims must be falsifiable, things which cannot be tested for (such as souls and the afterlife) are neither valid or useful and hold no utility for science.
John the obes in your studies contain one fatal flaw . None of them produce veridical ndes which bringback objectively verifiable info . This is the devastating evidence that an atheist like you has to deal with .
DeleteThen to knock out the rest of your objections to ndes are the more rare peak in Darien ndes on which Nders bring back objectively verifiable info from the afterlife of seeing loved ones in the afterlife thought to still be living .
http://deanradin.com/evidence/Greyson2010.pdf
One example a few below
"""
""Physician K. M. Dale related the case of 9-year-old Eddie Cuomo, whose fever finally broke after nearly 36 hours of anxious vigil on the part of his parents and hospital personnel. As soon as he opened his eyes, at 3:00 in the morning, Eddie urgently told his parents that he had been to heaven, where he saw his deceased Grandpa Cuomo, Auntie Rosa, and Uncle Lorenzo. His father was embarrassed that Dr. Dale was overhearing Eddie’s story and tried to dismiss it as feverish delirium. Then Eddie added that he also saw his 19-year- old sister Teresa, who told him he had to go back. His father then became agitated, because he had just spoken with Teresa, who was attending college in Vermont, two nights ago; and he asked Dr. Dale to sedate Eddie. Later that morning, when Eddie’s parents telephoned the college, they learned that Teresa had been killed in an automobile accident just after midnight, and that college officials had tried unsuccessfully to reach the Cuomos at their home to inform them of the tragic news (Steiger and Steiger 1995:42–46).""
Atheists have no rational physiological explanations for these peak in Darien ndes , but most atheists will just flat deny these ndes not because the evidence isn't good but because it goes against their atheism which then is exposed as emotional in nature and not rational . So the atheist must abandon common sense and reason to deny these ndes
ReplyDelete"1. What then is the current acceptable criteria for determining clinical death? Is the old method no longer viable?" Clinical death is when breathing stops and the heart stops beating but remember just because the heart has stopped beating does not mean their is no brain activity or the person cannot be revived (which is why we have Cpr.//
John, I think you're being purposefully vague. Is clinical death no longer a relevant medical observation to judge death? Yes or no? Is it no longer recognized worldwide as a actual criterion?
===
"2. The Nature article you cited sates there's a "Heightened awareness just after death". After death??? But all Physicalist theories assume death is final and there can be no "after death" They are talking about clinical death not brain death.//
OK, so you agree there can be life after death, just not brain death.
===
A scientific hypothesis is something that can be tested, and makes predictions, and for this reason the survival (of consciousness after death) is not a scientific hypothesis, since it cannot be tested, and doesn't make predictions. What the believers in the afterlife present is pure confirmation bias//
Here's a list of experimental evidence for verified OBEs. The researchers followed the rules of empricism.
http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/OBE-verifications.html
===
All scientific claims must be falsifiable, things which cannot be tested for (such as souls and the afterlife) are neither valid or useful and hold no utility for science//
I think the link I gave above should answer this one too.
've also dealt with this and successfully refuted the drug theory above in number 3." No you haven't it is known drugs can produce this phenomenon known as "out of body experience" remember OBEs are not NDEs. Also read this interesting experiment which produces out of body experience whilst monitoring the brain activity http://www.livescience.com/50683-out-of-body-illusion.html//
ReplyDeleteThe Swiss study is being lauded by some media reports as evidence that OBEs have their source in the brain.
Swiss researchers created an illusion in their subjects’ brains while monitoring their brains using MRI to see which parts of the brain were affected by the lab-produced "OBE." But while it cannot be denied that a biological component to OBEs and NDEs does exist, other OBE researchers warn against the Swiss study conclusion and give reasons why it is wrong. These include the following:
(1) STUDY IS NOT AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF OBES:
The Swiss experiments reproduce, shallowly, one possible element of an OBE rather than addressing all the complex elements of the phenomenon.
(2) STUDY ONLY INVOLVED ILLUSIONS, NOT REALITY:
The Swiss researchers created the illusion in the minds of test subjects that their bodies were in locations other than where they actually were. The illusion was created using a video headset where the subject would see in the video the body of a stranger located in a different part of the room. The researchers would stroke a part of the stranger’s body
while simultaneously stroking a part of the subject’s body. This caused the subject to associate his own body with that of the stranger -- it felt like he was outside of his body and located in the part of the room where the stranger’s body was.Parts of the brain showing a response to this illusion was discovered which included parts of the brain which make it possible to orient ourselves in space.
(3) THE RESULTS ARE NOT APPLICABLE ENTIRELY TO OBES:
According to Graham Nicholls, an authority in OBE research and OBEr himself, despite the fact that these experiments are interesting in how they may be in showing the effects of illusions related to body position, the results should not be applied wholesale to OBEs. He states:
"The recent study looking at the sense of self in space is the latest in a long line of similar experiments undertaken by Dr. Henrik Ehrsson, Dr. Olaf Blanke, and Dr. Jane Aspell among others since the early 2000s. The latest study repeats a process of using a basic form of virtual reality, a stereoscopic (3D) headset to create an illusion of being in another body or part of the room. When Dr. Henrik Ehrsson, et al did this in 2007, like now, the media widely reported that an out-of-body experience had been created in the lab. However, what really happened, then as now,was little more than a change in perception induced via a stereoscopic headset.
"As someone who has had hundreds of out-of-body experiences throughout my life, and also someone who has developed high-end virtual reality at the UK’s Science Museum, it is clear to me that ... NOTHING COMPARABLE TO THE COMPLEXITY AND SCOPE OF A GENUINE OBE WAS CREATED IN THIS STUDY (or can be created
with virtual reality). The best one could say is that a crude simulation was achieved with only a superficial resemblance
to an OBE."
(4) ACTUAL OBES DO NOT ALWAYS INVOLVE BODILY PERCEPTION:
Not all OBEs involve feeling oneself to be in a particular form outside of one’s body. Carlos Alvarado's OBE research found that 70% of participants had no experience of being a body of any type while within the OBE. In a similar OBE study by J. F. Brelaz de Castro which involved 250 participants, 47% of those interviewed did not see their physical body while
the OBE took place.
(continued)
ReplyDelete(5) OBE ILLUSION STUDIES HAVE ALREADY BEEN DEBUNKED:
In 2002, NDE expert Jan Holden co-authored a reply to Blanke’s study stating that the key test subject was uncharacteristic the majority of OBErs. Read more here: https://iands.org/research/important-research-articles/69-out-of-body-experiences-all-in-the-brain.html?showall=1
(6) OBE ILLUSIONS ARE NOT OBJECTIVELY REAL:
While Blanke's and the Swiss study involved in producing illusions of superficial and subjective OBE perception which did not objectively exist, there are many documented cases of subjective OBE perception which did objectively exist. Holden has compiled many cases of objective OBE perception (called "veridical perception") in which OBErs have reported seeing or hearing things outside of their body that were later verified to be true. These include cases of OBE veridical perception where OBErs see or hear things from great distances from their physical bodies.
(7) OBE ILLUSION STUDIES CANNOT EXPLAIN VERIDICAL OBE PERCEPTION:
One great example of OBE veridical perception during an NDE comes from Dr. Norma Bowe from Kean University.
While working in an Emergency Room environment, a woman was brought in while in a coma and clinically dead who was being resuscitated many times. The woman was successfully revived and it was later learned that she had an extreme case of OCD (obsessive compulsion disorder) which compelled her to have a "counting" problem where she was obsessed with numbers. During her interview, the woman said that while she was out-of-body in the Emergency Room, she saw and memorized the 12-digit serial number.of the respirator she was hooked up to. Dr. Bowe decided to investigate whether it was true or not. But the only way to read the 12-digit serial number of the respirator was to use a ladder because the number was on top of the register and was impossible to read from a standing position without a ladder. Dr. Bowe verified that the 12-digit number given by the OBEr was indeed the correct number on the respirator. This amazing case is fully documented in the book entitled, "The Death Class: A True Story About Life" by Erika Hayasaki
which can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1451642946/?tag=iandsorg-20 and this is just one of a multitude of cases involving OBE veridical perception and neither the Blanke study nor the Swiss study can duplicate or explain such cases. More cases of veridical OBE perceptions can be found here: http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/OBE-verifications.html
ReplyDelete"Is clinical death no longer a relevant medical observation to judge death? Yes or no? Is it no longer recognized worldwide as a actual criterion?" Brain death and clinical death are different things, just because the heart stops beating doesn't mean the brain is dead. It takes a certain amount of time for the brain to die from oxygen starvation it's not the case that the heart stops and then simultaneously (or very shortly after ) the brain stops otherwise CPR wouldn't work and would be a waste of time.
"OK, so you agree there can be life after death, just not brain death." Brain death is real death - since their is no return from it, if a person is revived by cpr then their brain didn't die and if they are not revived then their brain will die. It that's simple.
"Here's a list of experimental evidence for verified OBEs. The researchers followed the rules of empricism." That is exactly the kind of "research" I am talking about - anecdotal claims which are not testable and which cannot be falsified and which were not performed under controlled scientific conditions. Even the person who wrote that page actually admits to this - "A general note: Verifications - like all qualitative consciousness research of 'psychedelic' or altered states of consciousness - are not always easy to do, which makes it a difficult or even almost impossible task to obtain objective proof in scientific experiment set-ups" Here he admits it is impossible to verify such claims, this means it is not science as a scientific experiment must produce a clear result and of course it must be falsifiable. He further says "However, it is possible to get personal validations, as this (still small but growing) collection of online resources will show you. Some cases are stronger some less strong, so this is not about any scientific and 'water-proof' experimentation." Basically his "hypothesis" is based on a collection of anecdotes - which again are not scientific - and admits his "hypothesis" "is not about any scientific and 'water proof' experimentation. which means it is NOT a scientific hypothesis, so why are you linking me to this when the person themselves admits it is not science?
(PS even if paranormal abilities do exist - and their is no evidence that they do - they still are not evidence for an afterlife or a mind separate from the body - because why would this astral body need to use this worldly body for 99.99 % of its time here on earth? This is highly uneconomical. Furthermore the magician James Randi has offered anyone who claims to have such abilities to demonstrate them under controlled scientific conditions (and they will also receive a payment of one million dollars), funnily enough nobody has done it.
Brain death and clinical death are different things, just because the heart stops beating doesn't mean the brain is dead. It takes a certain amount of time for the brain to die from oxygen starvation it's not the case that the heart stops and then simultaneously (or very shortly after ) the brain stops otherwise CPR wouldn't work and would be a waste of time//
DeleteI did not argue that brain and clinical death is the same thing. I have no idea where this is coming from.
//Brain death is real death - since their is no return from it, if a person is revived by cpr then their brain didn't die and if they are not revived then their brain will die. It that's simple.//
This still does not address the issue of clinical death.
===
That is exactly the kind of "research" I am talking about - anecdotal claims which are not testable and which cannot be falsified and which were not performed under controlled scientific conditions.//
One testimony is called an anecdote. When you have 1000's of testimonies then its called a Clinical Trial Study
//Even the person who wrote that page actually admits to this - "A general note: Verifications - like all qualitative consciousness research of 'psychedelic' or altered states of consciousness - are not always easy to do, which makes it a difficult or even almost impossible task to obtain objective proof in scientific experiment set-ups"Here he admits it is impossible to verify such claims, this means it is not science as a scientific experiment must produce a clear result and of course it must be falsifiable.//
I think you're interpreting the paper as you really wish it to be. The part in bold implies that sometimes it is easy, although not always. The whole point of the article is to provide scientific experimentation which it does list at the beginning of the article.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/out-of-body/charles-tart.html
===
Basically his "hypothesis" is based on a collection of anecdotes - which again are not scientific - and admits his "hypothesis" "is not about any scientific and 'water proof' experimentation. which means it is NOT a scientific hypothesis, so why are you linking me to this when the person themselves admits it is not science?//
Again, you're only seeing what you want to see. The writer obviously does not mean all accounts of OBE validations are scientific, only a few qualify as scientific. The following is from the same paper.
Many CIA experiments in the 70ies and also later experiments at the Stanford university yielded highly compelling results.
AND
Scientific Laboratory Experiment by Palmer and Lieberman in the 70ies
AND
Scientific Experiment by Psychologist Dr Charles W. Tart:
Again, the evidence is there but you'll pick out words which you assume contradicts the whole purpose of the article.
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(PS even if paranormal abilities do exist - and their is no evidence that they do - they still are not evidence for an afterlife or a mind separate from the body - because why would this astral body need to use this worldly body for 99.99 % of its time here on earth? This is highly uneconomical. Furthermore the magician James Randi has offered anyone who claims to have such abilities to demonstrate them under controlled scientific conditions (and they will also receive a payment of one million dollars), funnily enough nobody has done it.//
It's bizzare that you've chosen James Randi since he's not a scientist nor mathematician. Besides, I do not trust his judgement because he is highly prejudiced against any non-physical possibilities.
ReplyDelete"This still does not address the issue of clinical death" What Issue? Clinical death means heart and breathing stops and if not restarted then the brain will start to die these are the facts their isn't any "issue".
"One testimony is called an anecdote. When you have 1000's of testimonies then its called a Clinical Trial Study" Anecdotes at best form the basis a of scientific hypothesis for example a shampoo Company can claim "88% of women agreed it makes your hair shiny and smooth" (or something like that ) this is not scientific evidence but it is a claim which can be tested scientifically. In your case you have some anecdotal claims - which could well be entirely imaginary - and which cannot be cannot tested and which cannot produce a clear result. which means it cannot be falsified which means it is not a valid scientific hypothesis.
"The part in bold implies that sometimes it is easy, although not always" Is going to be easier on rats but their is going to be a lot a nuisance doing the same experiments on humans in cardiac arrest.
"only a few qualify as scientific" Let's quote what he actually said then , "so this is not about any scientific and 'water-proof' experimentation." You see what he said their? "This is not about any scientific and water proof experimentation" He is admitting his "hypothesis" is not scientific.
"Many CIA experiments in the 70ies and also later experiments at the Stanford university yielded highly compelling results.
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Scientific Laboratory Experiment by Palmer and Lieberman in the 70ies
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Scientific Experiment by Psychologist Dr Charles W. Tart" I would like to see the "details" of these "experiments", funnily enough I don't remember the CIA using remote viewing to find Osama Bin Laden.
"Again, the evidence is there but you'll pick out words which you assume contradicts the whole purpose of the article" No their isn't any evidence anywhere that their is any such paranormal abilities.
"It's bizzare that you've chosen James Randi since he's not a scientist nor mathematician. Besides, I do not trust his judgement because he is highly prejudiced against any non-physical possibilities" JREF (James Randi educational foundation) offers the million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate or prove any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or ability under proper observing conditions. Those observing conditions are decided upon by both the claimant and the JREF, and to their mutual satisfaction. The tests are NOT done by the JREF, but by an independent party or parties mutually agreed upon by the claimant and the JREF.